Thoughts on #FA2020 Scroll

[Satelle]

I was offline for a bit dealing with workload and read much great scroll, containing a number of topics that I really want to sound off on too. Here's thoughts on some comments and points made:

Aemorniel: it gets used as a "friends group" though, which then results in work not getting done and people just hanging out
Aemorniel: joining an Aspect, requires you to set aside your ego for half a second and look at what is being taught, and try out those teachings sincerely

Interesting, this is an interpretation of being here that involves Change. I happen to agree with it, and that is the point I work off of, but I wonder also if there is room for people to simply hang out here and improve in other ways that are not goal-centric.

The risk of Aemorniel's point is what I see at other sites: a place where comfort is more important than Change, and the goalposts are constantly moved to make everything collectively easier. Very safe, no one is caught out not putting in effort, etc. See my rants about the TOTJO 100 Day Challenge. I see that being where "friends group" leads, because "friends" aren't always good to shove you out of the comfort zone and change. However, the other side of that is...

Khaos: The beginning levels [of the DA section of the Academy] are done. People started
Khaos: Noone finished
Khaos: It isn't hard to light an intial fire
Khaos: A lot of people get excited in the beginning of things. Its the follow through is where people quit

What Khaos describes is what happened. And it also happened when Fatum Operandi was running, with the same sort of material using Moodle, around the start of the 2000s. The first level got a good amount of people, then progressively smaller signsups and even views of the rest of the material. Setting aside my thoughts on the specific problem for a moment, if we do decide that the FA is where people come to put in some real work to live intentionally and learn things in an environment where they are accountable through group scrutiny and support, then we will get this sort of behavior.

When I was initially looking through the FO material and thinking of how to update it, I was tempted to dumb it down, and make it a quicker process. I thought a lot about that and tested some shorter outlines, and ultimately decided not to damage the dependencies and also not to create confusion in how titles were earned. I understand, empathically and from the experience the first time around, that people would go into it with expectations and then drag their feet at the load. I'm still thinking from lessons learned from this release and am considering how to deal with it.

Khaos: Is it numbers?
Khaos: Quantity that is the issue?

But in the end, I'm much more concerned about quality here over quantity. I don't have some threshold for activity that would make this venture unworthwhile, so I'm perfectly happy evolving the FA.

Aemorniel: but TOTJO has structured learning, lesson tiers, etc. There's a sense of unlocking new levels at TOTJO.
Aemorniel: if you talk to other people, and get to know them, you can tell if their lives are improving or not
Aemorniel: and you can tell if people are just here to hang out, or if they're doing the work
Aemorniel: or any work, really, though the student also has the obligation to keep the teachers of that Aspect informed
Aemorniel: update your dusty old journal periodically
Aemorniel: or to support each other in living intentional lives

I like this observation, and think it's difficult to find a good balance. I like making the new levels worthwhile, but there has to be some middle ground between the "friends group" issue and the "Level 1 scared everyone off" issue. I think if we keep this place as one that challenges people, we're going to have a core group that is smaller than other sites that mostly thrive on mediocracy and drama.

Aemorniel: I think the skills you learn would help in every regard, including that one
Aemorniel: but again, if I had no income, and my career was in the tank, I probably would be out there fixing that, not worrying about my Jungian shadow
Aemorniel: and I hope most people would be

Aemorniel: Seta, I'm not saying you can't be at the FA if you're a stay at home parent or disabled or whatever. I'm saying that if you can't sustain yourself physically (the bottom parts of Maslow's pyramid) it's probably a mistake to be reaching for the top of the pyramid

So much Fatum Operandi here. Such pyramid. Wow. Tempered by Khaos dropping some wisdom:

Khaos: Any learning online needs to be largely self directed

But what would this learning be, if we see the FA as an Academy, with the difficulties described above? Noel and Aemorniel both said quite a few things that jived very well with the DA program as we have now, and I'll address those separately. But as for how we go about it all....

Aemorniel: I think really, the Aspects have segmented and work is being done behind closed doors more than out in the open

I agree with this, but I have taken a very hands off attitude about how the other Aspects operate, and I do not want to dictate to them how they run their shit. But I'll be blunt here about how I feel about a few things around this.

I don't like that the LA still seems to operate apart from the FA, on Facebook and numerous activities that are known to a few, and don't see the light of day to the Force Academy community. I realize this is mostly Setanaoko having an active Force presence outside the FA, but given her position, it feels like the LA is still apart from us. Encouraging them to come back was why I opened up the Academy to their courses, and I'd really love to understand why the lack of trust persists.

For the Shadow, it bothers me that so much of what they do is opaque; there is nothing visible that I can refer people who seem interested in the Shadows beyond "you should talk to Raven". That combined with the policy of expecting people to prove their worth before being brought behind the curtain means that we've lost some people who may have otherwise stuck around. Of the two issues, the Shadow one is likely better solved with more public material that people can at least read. The LA one involves resolving the fragmentation of presence.

For the DA, most discussion has been right out in #general instead of the #da-channels, and I'm working on writing up the program in texts for download, so it's not so much a problem. If I'm wrong about that, let me know, it's not my intent.

That all said, I'm really looking to make it as easy as possible to involve everyone and share information, but when exclusivity is part of the intent, I'm not sure that it can be solved with technology.

Khaos: So the forums need to host some kind of activity
Aemorniel: or do they?
Khaos: I dont think so

I don't think so either, though I wouldn't mind some guided topics or conversation seeds. I haven't seen it my responsibility to generate discussion topics, but something could be done there. There are a lot of ways to do that.

Khaos: It was definitely as rich visually as anything else though
Khaos: I think the current FA lacks that
Aemorniel: I think it looks fine. It's just empty
Irvine: I don't think that kind of visual is part of modern web design though
Aemorniel: All these forums people think they want but don't use
Khaos: Agreed
Aemorniel: I would parse it down a lot
Aemorniel: add workrooms and libraries
Aemorniel: If FA feels inactive, it's because we're not using it

Related to what Justin said about this place still having the feel of the rescue raft, FA2020 does imply that we would be spending 2019 understanding why we're not using it, and what we would like to use. Aemorniel has given some GREAT suggestions that I'm working out how to implement.

Aemorniel: I think that's a bigger component than we discuss. Somewhere along the way, the trust required to share things openly got fractured, and we've done not that much to repair it
Aemorniel: but I do think the trust thing is real
Aemorniel: there's a reason the LA left, and why they get defensive every time someone points it out
Aemorniel: there's a reason the Exploring Movement forum doesn't exist anymore
Aemorniel: there's reasons Irvine didn't work on Sine Nomine in open sight, and there's reasons for all of this
Aemorniel: and it's a lot easier to sit around and talk about the good old days than it is to think about where we let ourselves down as a community
Aemorniel: if we really wanted to build something great, those are the reasons we would be looking at. but we don't, and we're not, so everyone is going to continue to work in their segmented areas
Aemorniel: and anyone not engaged is going to look in and think no work is being done, and then come here to complain about it lol
Aemorniel: and dream of what FA2020 could be

I'm not sure I agree that the trust issue is a main one, but I understand it happened largely while I was away. I don't have the experience with it. I did not like the "shark tank" mode of the DA when I looked in occasionally because I feel it drove people away from saying things; there's a fine line between someone who "can't take being challenged" and someone who decides that posturing dude on the internet isn't worth the trouble. The FA I remember in the late 90s/early 2000s was very spirited without being so aggressive as to slam people into not wanting to bother even replying.

I also remember that a lot of that spirit was the sparring between the DA and the LA, which was along very real lines of self-determination/group identity and I miss that. The DA/FO is still aligned to that, so I'm curious how it works with things now, as I grow it. To some extent, we're missing the old Light Side va Dark Side that made things a touch dramatic and interesting.

So if what Aemorniel describes is actually a problem here, let's think and talk about it. It wasn't, really, during 2nd Dynasty days, and I'd like to fix it at the site level now.

Khaos: As an aside pistachio butter is a goddamn delight

^^^ the real insight out of this.

[-Khaos-]

On the "Shark Tank" of the DA i think has largely become a convenient excuse. Especially since it is years removed from that time. Lol, and many, if not most of the people who "didnt feel safe/didnt like it" were more than willing to be in the thick of it at the time.

Blaming history at this point almost amounts to a logical fallacy, almost a weird spin on the appeal to tradition.

The way people remember things are seldom if ever how it happened. Hence why it is not common practice to rely on eye witness accounts.

If its a trust issue then it would have to be for the older members as we have no new ones and the current forum reflects nothing of older renditions of the FA. The past cannot continued to be blamed for the actions of the present and future.

The FA is not where people come to put in real work. No forum is. It is a place to documents,reflect, discuss, and share the real work being done, gain insight, scope, refine,discuss and apply again.(whicj is where accountability through scrutiny and support takes form) People take that experience hard gained and polished in the form of lessons, lectures, etc. That work is not done at the FA either, it is posted here. So it is also good to understand exactly what and how this tool;resource is actually used to get the best use out of it.

[Setanaoko]

Just an observation I’ve had over the years:

One of the issues I saw between the “Moor-Loremaster” incident of 2006(7?) through to about the beginning of last year, is a lack of exploration on topics related to spirituality.

It’s been practically taboo to address topics which do not have obvious psychological or practical ties. Not so much in the sense that we cannot talk about it, but rather that there has been a fear of backlash. It’s not just here, though, it got its way around the community too.

What I have noticed, however, is that there is a want to communicate on the Force more.

I’m not 100% sure how we can facilitate that discussion in the open. There are times that I feel like some topics shouldn’t be addressed in the public sphere. And other times I feel that if we don’t, it’s just not going to get out there that we support those conversations at all.

[Satelle]

Just an observation I’ve had over the years:

One of the issues I saw between the “Moor-Loremaster” incident of 2006(7?) through to about the beginning of last year, is a lack of exploration on topics related to spirituality.

It’s been practically taboo to address topics which do not have obvious psychological or practical ties. Not so much in the sense that we cannot talk about it, but rather that there has been a fear of backlash. It’s not just here, though, it got its way around the community too.

What I have noticed, however, is that there is a want to communicate on the Force more.

I’m not 100% sure how we can facilitate that discussion in the open. There are times that I feel like some topics shouldn’t be addressed in the public sphere. And other times I feel that if we don’t, it’s just not going to get out there that we support those conversations at all.

Is any of the above currently a concern in 2019 with the current group of people? I would really like to talk about that in terms of now and forward, with history as a citation of why it might be like that now.

[Setanaoko]

Addressing the last post first:
With the current group, I believe we are (more than ever) able to move forward on such works. The biggest issue is with people that are already a part of the Jedi Community and know it’s become a “taboo” topic. If we get completely fresh blood then this isn’t an issue. But if we’re attracting from places like ToTJO, Jedi Church and so forth, then it is an issue because the community as a whole has a reputation for shutting down these discussions.

Concerning the LA’s involvement.

I know how you feel on the matter...but I feel differently being the on the inside. I feel like (until the last 2 weeks) that I have been the LA. Sotunus is at least communicating with me when I want his attention, but he’s been dealing with a lot of things offline. And William also has a lot of things on his plate.

I’m very connected to the community, yes, but I do make an effort to try and bring people into the FA as a whole. It’s just not working. I’ve learned today that William has tried to bring in people expressing upset with another order.

Some people don’t come here because of our history. Some come in and are put off by the challenge to work on themselves. Some are content with the devil they know (ToTJO). Some prefer the convenience of having everything they need in one simple app (Facebook; to my annoyance). Others, I have absolutely no idea why they won’t even take a chance.

The LA can’t lead something that only exists amongst 3 people who are the council, especially when only one of us has consistent activity. :/

[Darius Moor]

Im curious what the “Moor-Loremaster” incident of 2006 is supposed to be?

Ellen and I have been friends for many years.

It’s an interesting thread. I can’t really comment on the 2019 problem agenda. I’ve been away for too long to pretend I know much.

“Study the history and plan the future” although, I could throw in my 2 cents on the taboo of spiritualism. Now not looking to criticize in any way, but just sharing my view and experience.

I think it’s simply generational change. Kids always try to be different from the parents. One affect here in my view is that the FA started with a high spiritual focus and the next generation wanted to create their own identity independent of that. So they focused on the apparent opposite: the mundane. Call it psychology or whatever you’d like to put in that box.

The new always tries to push out the old. Such is life. But maybe now the wheel is turning again. If I understand correctly from the above, people are moving more towards spiritual questions again? Then maybe the 3rd generation is now following the second. We come 360 degrees.

Maybe that’s due to a younger generation exploring their self identity. Maybe it’s their taking to the notion of wanting to bring positive change. This could be complicated by the equation that bringing change is often connected to efforts put forward. And an environment that’s grown high on entertainment and instant gratification isn’t intuitive around this correlation. No criticism again. We’ve all moved more towards instant gratification. And we’ve built the tools of our time in the internet, instagram and the “perfect life” syndrome of vacation pictures and selfies showing only the fruits of life without the work and pain. The older of us might understand that. The younger generation grows up wondering why everyone’s life looks better without any speed bumps or significant efforts put to it.

And maybe to push the envelope a bit further, there are clear images for me in how spirituality became a taboo. In the DA it was easy, because everything regarding the supernatural got flammed. Spirituality being the road travelled to get to the supernatural was therefore ridiculed. It was the “kill the Czar, here come the socialists”.

In the LA the manifestation was different but to the same effect. In the LA you’ve always had two schools in my opinion. One of the soldier and one of the seer. The Soldier is the Jedi archetype who focuses on philosophy and martial arts. They may or may not be soldiers or police officers in real life but they are martial people from a mindset. The Seers are people like Ellen or myself, who study the universe from a spiritual and esoteric perspective. Soldiers never trust magic. Wizards never trust soldiers. It’s in any story we read essentially as children and speaks to a clash of archetypes. The translation best suited in real history is the battle between church and state. Guns against Faith. In the end they competed for dominance. The soldiers pushed out their wizards until they were no more. So has it happened here.

One solution might be to simply allow for both. Why can’t an FA aspect consist of two schools. When we start giving people a place, a home instead of trying to take it away they will come and settle.

How to do that best is of course a separate debate.

[Raven]

This is a quote from "understanding the enneagram" by Ron Richard Risa. I have not read this book but I feel the quote very much applies.

"Psychology without spirituality is arid and ultimately meaningless, while spirituality without grounding in psychological work leads to vanity and illusions."

Personally, I send people where they don't want to go. Becoming comfortable with discomfort is my goal. It's hard to grow in any real way if people are stuck in their box.
Overly spiritual <-> ground and get practical.
Focused entirely on the external work <-> go within
only worry about what you think <-> get feedback from others
past creates the present <-> time to make a vision
etc, etc, etc.